Okay, here's a bag of worms to open.  My wife sent me this link for consideration.  http://blogs.edmunds.com/women/341

 A couple things caught my attention.   One is blaming "looser helmet laws" for an increasin motorcycle deaths.   Guess it depends on how you interpret stats.   I've heard it blamed on so many things.

 Another thing was that young people deaths have DECEREASED and they are saying the graduated licensing system is to credit for this.  SOOOOOooooooo, if that is truly the case, why not have a graduated licensing system for motorcyclists?   Like Europe. 

 I know this will upset some who will say it infringes on our American Freedoms, etc.   How free are we really, anyway?  Not very in my opinion.  (that's another argument for another forum).

 But in my opinion, graduated licensing would help decrease deaths by not allowing a newbie to ride a 150 hp or 800 lb machine that they are possibly not capable of handling.  It would also probably decrease the amount of riders getting on bikes simnply because their cul-de-sac neighbor has a shiny new chrome harley.  Not saying that to single out harleys, but how many classes have i been in where folks come to class having bought a new harley or two, simply because someone they know has one and it looks like FUN!!!  It is fun, but requires a great investment, physically and mentally, on the rider's part.

 It would also prevent Juniior with a desperate Need for Speed from going out and buying a 600 or larger something with an R in the name for their first bike.   Have seen this phenomenon too.    Again, they just want to do something on the streets that they may not be prepared to do.   same as crusier folks with no experience.   Smaller bikes aer as much fun as big bikes and much more maneuverable during the learning curve.   If someone can't handle a Nighthawk or rebel or dual sportin class, how good they gonna be on a new sportster or 600 sportbike?

 It might also keep people from doing something for the wrong reasons.  I know folks in class who by the end of the weekend, say they regret their purchases already, because they realize they can't handle the bike they've already bought.

  training and graduated licensing should be required, in my opinion.   We don;t turn folks loose in a car without some form of driver training, no matter how sparse the training is.     I just don;t see that we need new riders on large displacement machinery with no real experience.

 Rando

 

rando wrote:

A couple things caught my attention. One is blaming "looser helmet laws" for an increasing motorcycle deaths. Guess it depends on how you interpret stats. I've heard it blamed on so many things.

See my post "Historical perspective" for some thoughts on why motorcycle deaths might have increased. One thing I know, however, is that "looser helmet laws" have had little to do with it. Since 1996, the last year before six states (AR, FL, KY, LA [since re-enacted], PA, TX) repealed helmet laws, annual deaths in the repeal states increased by 600 while deaths in the non-repeal states increased by 1150. Rates per registered motorcycle increased slightly more in the repeal states than in the non-repeal states, 23% vs. 19%.

Another thing was that young people deaths have DECEREASED and they are saying the graduated licensing system is to credit for this. SOOOOOooooooo, if that is truly the case, why not have a graduated licensing system for motorcyclists? Like Europe.

Here's a dirty little secret about graduated driver licensing for teenagers in the US: The system "works" because it discourages them from driving by making the process more difficult. It doesn't preferentially exclude bad drivers. IOW, it doesn't pick out the bad apples, it just makes the basket smaller. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety was trumpeting the success of these programs in a press release last year. A careful reading, though, revealed that fatal crash involvement of 16-year-olds per 100,000 population had dropped, but the crash rate per licensed driver remained the same.

That's a preview of what could happen with graduated motorcycle licensing: The licensing process is made more rigorous, fatalities decrease, and the safetyocracy goes wild, patting themselves on the back and handing out medals all around. But what really happened? Were unsafe riders either excluded or turned into safe riders, or was entry into motorcycling simply made more difficult, excluding safer and less safe riders equally?

I know this will upset some who will say it infringes on our American Freedoms, etc. How free are we really, anyway? Not very in my opinion.

"We've whizzed away most of our freedoms already, what's one more?" isn't a winning argument.

But in my opinion, graduated licensing would help decrease deaths by not allowing a newbie to ride a 150 hp or 800 lb machine that they are possibly not capable of handling.

That's the compelling argument for more stringent licensing as I see it. In my file of crash articles, I've got dozens just like these:

Highway Patrol Sgt. Joe Starling said [rider name snipped] was riding around a curve on Bluegrass Road outside Selma when her motorcycle fell over and she was thrown into a tree. She died in route to Johnston Memorial Hospital, he said. Starling said [the rider was] was wearing a helmet and that alcohol was not involved. He said [she] had gotten her motorcycle permit Friday.

[Rider name snipped] was riding a 2005 Suzuki GSXR 750 motorcycle south on Benjamin Road and lost control near Gardner Court Drive, Hillsborough County sheriff's deputies said Monday. He was driving the newly purchased bike away from the lot, a sheriff's spokesman said. [He] did not have a motorcycle endorsement on his driver's license, deputies said.

A Macomb man who died Friday after his motorcycle struck a car had just purchased the bike earlier that day, police said Monday. [Rider name snipped], 66, died at 8:36 p.m. Friday in the emergency room of OSF Saint Francis Medical Center in Peoria.... According to accident reports, [the car] was driving east when [the rider's] westbound 2005 Harley-Davidson drifted across the centerline and struck the driver's side of [the car].

I don't think it's asking too much to require anyone who wants to ride a motorcycle on public roads to demonstrate the ability to brake and steer the thing at normal road speed. Therefore, I would be in favor of mandatory pre-license training course for all riders. No learner's permit and "on-the-job" training. First take a course and show that you know how to ride, then you get a license.

Beyond that, I don't support more rigorous training requirements. I think expectations of what such a system can accomplish are unrealistic. Training can benefit riders who want to ride more safely, but it has only a limited effect on those who just go through the motions to get their license. Unless we're talking about something like Marine Corps boot camp, training can't change attitudes significantly. Moreover, many newbie-tragedy stories involve unlicensed riders. If they're not going to take the trivial steps to get a license under today's laws, they surely won't comply with more difficult requirements.

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A superior rider uses superior judgment to avoid problems that would demand his superior skill.

Dan,

You raise good points.  Thanks.  I'm not really sure where the solution lies.  Actually, there probably is not one solution.   If people don;t want to drive/ride safe, they won't.

Around here, the younger drivers can't drive past 9 pm, but just last week a 17 y/o girl was killed driving too fast on her way to school.  So parts of graduated system do not work.   And yes a rider can get killed ona 125 also.  But if they ae not allowed the bigger bikes for a while, it might help them LEARN to ride before jumping on a big bike and becoming a statistic before they get home.

Thanks for sharing
Rando

I am all for a graduated licence for minors. And since they are under 18 I dont see that as taking away any freedom. A big part of the problem with young riders is they lack experience with street traffic in general. It just makes it harder for most to add the risk and complexity of a motorcycle to that lack of experience.

 I believe the best goal isnt to omit people for motorcycles but to make them the best they can be.

Graduated Licensing on younger riders might work, but many ride unlicensed anyway. That would probably remain the case here.

Mandatory Motorcycle Safety Training wouldn't work for two reasons. Those forced into it wouldn't learn much, and we can't train the ones out there now. We don't have enough trainers. We beg for them, but nobody wants to give up their weekends to a hot parking lot, when they could be out riding. Trust me, been there, done that. It ain't no gravy job. But I am considering going back to instructing, (oops, they call them Coaches now) because there is such a need out there, and the Chairman of the Governors Motorcycle Safety and Awareness Board keeps trying to talk me into it. The need is there, but I don't believe we can meet it without more compensation for the coaches as an incentive.

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"DUCK" WV

I guess every state pays differently.   NC pays from $13 to $20 per hour for 22 hours at most sites.   The sites set their rates and such.   ONe site I work at averages $26/hr when you add in mileage/motel.  Of course, that extra has to come out to pay for same. 

 It isn't as much fun as it used to be.  At times I question if there are any good potential riders left.   That's a very cynical attitude, I know.  

Rando

Unfortunately, if you make it harder to get a license, there will be more un-licensed riders on the streets.

First, parents need to become more responsible for their kids. Also, we need to make Dealers responsible for whom they sell a bike to. It's all about the mighty buck to them. Bar-tenders and bar owners can be held responsible for letting a drunk out of their place, driving: Dealers should be just as responsible for selling a race bike to a kid, or a bagger to an old man, or an 1800 to a tiny woman with no experience, or worse, no license.

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Doing my part to save a Bikers life!
www.SaveABiker.com

well, now this is an interesting topic I never really considered before... I like the idea of having to pass the safety course FIRST then, you could be allowed to get your permit. In PA, this year, they have to have their permits before they can even register for a PA MSP course (which, as of last year, they have to pass a written test to get their permit- so that is an improvement over before, where you only had to pay a small fee, fill out the papers, and TAH-DAH! you had your permit!)... S if they took their course, got their permit, then perhaps had a 3 month waiting period or something to give them time to practice their new skills, then maybe they could come back to the site for a refresher course (brief) with the licensing exam (skills evlauation). For the states that have private programs, maybe that could be part of the fee- the 2 part course. I dont know, just brainstorming.

The problem is always how do you police it? If there were super heavy duty fees involved for riding without a license, or for riding on a permit without an accompanied licensed rider, then maybe people would be less likely to do it. All it takes is a few poor slobs getting fined, and the word would get out. It's too easy right now to ride without a license, so why would they bother? There needs to be a deterrent. 

And yes- I have seen that a lot too, where someone with no experience buys a full dresser that weighs 700-800 pounds, or a hayabusa or something way over their skill level. It is amazing that keeping up with the Jones' is in the motorcycle world too...

hmmm... very interesting... thanks- Laura

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"The destination is only the excuse" - Daniel Meyer

Graduated license...absofreakinglutely! Your preaching to the choir here bubba. Why don't we? Because WE are not involved. Because the state government doesn't want to get involved. Because the Motorcycle manufacturers don't want it. It's about profits. So how do we fix it? We start with one state, then we go from there. In Europe and in Canada it's standard practice. Why not the USA? Is it about freedom? No, it's about safety...period. I'm all for mandated training, even FOR the 40 something new or reentry rider.

 Want to buy a Huyabusa???? A GSXR 1000??? FINE!!!! They have computer controlled ECU's ( engine control units) with software we can control the power. Get the training, it's gets turned up, get the experience, it gets turned up all the way. That way the manufacturers can sell the bikes.

 One other thing, get caught with no Motorcycle endorsement....lose your ride. It gets towed off. What don't you understand? No endorsement=no license. IF you get caught driving an automobile without a license do they let you drive off? No, they arrest you...on the spot.

Riding a motorcycle and living to tell about it requires a skill set that DOES NOT translate from driving an automobile.

The sooner we as motorcyclist's show a united front, the sooner we cna affect change.

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Superior riders use superior knowledge and superior experience to avoid situations that require superior skill.

BMW R1200ST

Jamming:

One other thing, get caught with no Motorcycle endorsement....lose your ride. It gets towed off. What don't you understand? No endorsement=no license. IF you get caught driving an automobile without a license do they let you drive off? No, they arrest you...on the spot.

The State of Washington has a law authorizing law enforcement to impound a motor vehicle, including a motorcycle, if the operator is stopped and they do not have the proper license or endorsement.  The key wording in this law is that it is applicable to all motor vehicles, including motorcycles.  To date, they have impounded approximately 250 motorcycles.  And, needless to say, the word got out and folks have been flocking to sign up for rider training courses and take the operator skills tests at their licensing agency's offices.  It'll be interesting to see how this affects their crash, injury, and fatal data and how that compares to previous years.

The NAMS includes as a "Necessary" recommendatiopn that GDL for motorcycles be tried out and studied in a small number of states. Has it happened? Are there any states that now require GDL for motorcycles?

The NAMS includes as a "Necessary" recommendation that GDL for motorcycles be tried out and studied in a small number of states. Has it happened? Are there any states that now require GDL for motorcycles?